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diazona's review against another edition
adventurous
emotional
reflective
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? No
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? No
1.5
It's 1875, and at a table in a long-distance train car there are two old philosophers with corncob pipes and horn-rimmed glasses having a dense scholarly debate about the nature of life on other planets. The third person at the table is a retired railway executive, who is mildly interested in the debate but is more interested in the fourth person: his new, inappropriately young girlfriend. After a while the train breaks down, so they go out and try to fix it. They walk through some scenery. They talk to some people. There may be an episode of them getting captured and/or uncaptured - I dunno, I had kind of lost interest at this point.
Congratulations, you've just read Ringworld.
I mean, sure, the train is moving at a hundred thousand times the speed of light, and the philosophers are aliens, but the sad thing is, none of that matters. As I see it, Ringworld is a story about four people who go on an adventure and are too preoccupied with their own relationships and internal conflicts to let anything interesting happen on said adventure. I couldn't bring myself to care about any of these people, and the "adventures" they go on are pretty inconsequential. I know it's supposed to be a classic and all, but this book sucked all the joy out of reading for me; it's the closest I've ever come to not finishing a book because of how much I didn't like it.
Congratulations, you've just read Ringworld.
I mean, sure, the train is moving at a hundred thousand times the speed of light, and the philosophers are aliens, but the sad thing is, none of that matters. As I see it, Ringworld is a story about four people who go on an adventure and are too preoccupied with their own relationships and internal conflicts to let anything interesting happen on said adventure. I couldn't bring myself to care about any of these people, and the "adventures" they go on are pretty inconsequential. I know it's supposed to be a classic and all, but this book sucked all the joy out of reading for me; it's the closest I've ever come to not finishing a book because of how much I didn't like it.
Content Warnings
Moderate: Fire/Fire injury
Minor: Confinement, Death, Sexual content, Slavery, and Violence
angorarabbit's review against another edition
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? No
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? No
0.25
TW: Graphic blood, misogyny, sexual content, xenophobia. Moderate death, fire injury, homophobia, sexism, violence. Minor colonialism cursing (invented words substituted), slavery, war. There are two adults in a relationship with 180 year age difference. Spicy bits can be skipped with no loss to the story.
TLDR: Trying to read this in the early 1980’s caused me to turn to DrangonRiders of Pern.
Clarke tech: To much to type but for starters; transfer booths, ftl travel, tasps, stabis fields, General Product hulls, artificial gravity, sonic folds, food replicators, floating buildings, auto docs, the material for the ringworld, inherited psi.
Normally a 1 star book would be a DNF for me, I made an exception for this since it won the Hugo, Nebula, and Locus awards, has a 3.94 star rating on Goodreads and a .3.52 on StoryGraph. Also it is only 313 pages.
Firstly let’s talk about the book itself. Written in the third person the narrator knows the thoughts of one of the main characters. People technology, and places are not well described, the flora and fauna of the ringworld is described as “earth like”. The main characters seem to meander through the story without much idea of what they are doing or why. They also have little to no backstory and are not very interesting. The book ends on a cliffhanger. All in all, frustraing.
Next the science. Ringworld is still praised for the audacity of it’s science, but when you look at his shiny tech it is mostly borrowed from Star Trek. Which is hardly a surprise since Mr Niven did write for the show and the Kzin did appear in one episode, that I remember vaguely. of the animated series. Of the non-Star Trek tech the flycycles are cool, but their sonic fields, food replicators, and auto docs are basicaly magic dressed up in techno words. Floating buildings make absolutely no sense in a world with that much land. And of course the ringwood itself as written is unstable.
Lastly the elephant in the book. The problem of Teela. Of four crew members there is one female. When she expresses her feelings of inadequacy and failure to the crew member who is her partner he says,
“I’ll grant you blew that one. As a good luck charm, you’re fired. Come on, smile. We need you. We need you to keep me happy, so I don’t rape Nessus.…”
Basically Teela exists so we can get mild sex scenes. And a strange subplot about luck.
Finally at page 260 we get another female with a speaking part. This is the conversation that two of the male crew mates have about her after one character’s first conversation with her.
“Did you think to ask about the ratio of sexes abroad ship? How many of the thirty-six were women?”
“She told me that. Three.”
You might as well forget about her profession.”
A few pages later we get a scene that leaves no doubt as to what her profession was on her former ship.
To top it off the other two alien species female’s are non-sentient and for breeding purposes only. A quick check on the interwebs tells me that Mr Niven was husband to an wife who was an MIT graduate and active in many science fiction clubs as well as being a writer herself. I would love to know what her thoughts regarding Teela’s role in the Ringworld novel was. Unfortunately in my quick troll around I found nothing.
There must be something worthwhile in this novel for it to win the accolades it did. I just never found it.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Misogyny, Sexual content, Xenophobia, and Blood
Moderate: Death, Homophobia, Sexism, Violence, and Fire/Fire injury
Minor: Cursing, Slavery, Colonisation, and War
Invented words are substituted for American curse words but the meaning is clear. Spicy bits can be skipped with no loss to the story.defcon's review against another edition
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? No
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? It's complicated
There is no reason to read this book in the 21st century (or beyond). SFF has come so far, society has come so far. Totally dull, poorly put together story, miserably written, awful characters, the worst politics (the politics are bad even for when it was written). I think even if you are part of this book's intended audience (straight, white, male, libertarian) you will still find plenty in here to make your lip curl in distaste in 2024.
Part of what makes it such a slog is that the SF is unimaginative and thinly drawn. I expected at the very least the Ringworld itself would be an interesting entity but it really wasn't, just another excuse for the author to write pointless and meandering vignettes that expand on his cartoonishly reactionary viewpoints. Many of the "revelations" in the book's plot were very obvious and/or came across as the author attempting to write Arthur C. Clarke fanfiction (now Clarke was someone who could offend a modern sensibility but actually tell a compelling sci-fi story).
What struck me as I read this is that the author clearly read plenty of SF, and enjoyed it, but did not himself have a mind for science, for systems, for fantasy or extrapolation. All of his world building comes across as regurgitations of half-digested meals. He's a not terribly smart or curious guy who tried to write terribly smart and curious characters, and the disconnect is palpable.
Part of what makes it such a slog is that the SF is unimaginative and thinly drawn. I expected at the very least the Ringworld itself would be an interesting entity but it really wasn't, just another excuse for the author to write pointless and meandering vignettes that expand on his cartoonishly reactionary viewpoints. Many of the "revelations" in the book's plot were very obvious and/or came across as the author attempting to write Arthur C. Clarke fanfiction (now Clarke was someone who could offend a modern sensibility but actually tell a compelling sci-fi story).
What struck me as I read this is that the author clearly read plenty of SF, and enjoyed it, but did not himself have a mind for science, for systems, for fantasy or extrapolation. All of his world building comes across as regurgitations of half-digested meals. He's a not terribly smart or curious guy who tried to write terribly smart and curious characters, and the disconnect is palpable.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Ableism, Adult/minor relationship, Fatphobia, Homophobia, Misogyny, Racial slurs, Racism, Rape, Sexism, Sexual assault, Slavery, Toxic relationship, Forced institutionalization, Xenophobia, Religious bigotry, Schizophrenia/Psychosis , Cultural appropriation, Sexual harassment, Colonisation, and Classism
mar's review against another edition
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Plot
- Strong character development? No
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? No
2.0
sorry cant write a proper review bc every time i think about how Niven writes women in this book i start seeing red
Content Warnings
Graphic: Misogyny and Sexism
Moderate: Confinement, Sexual content, Vomit, and Fire/Fire injury
Minor: Racism, Rape, and Slavery
weird eugenics shitstoryorc's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
emotional
funny
hopeful
informative
inspiring
reflective
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.5
Creative concepts with implications explored
The Ringworld, with its carefully-considered technologies for air, landscape, a day/night cycle, spaceports, defence and more, is just the start. Teleportation has rendered all human cities one homogenous soup. One weapon disables and addicts an enemy via artificial bursts of happiness. The ships have a stasis field that freezes you in time when it detects trouble. Some races can move entire planets. The idea of breeding for luck is a surprise through-line that explores how being the luckiest person alive might make you something that is barely even human.
Oh, and one of the principle characters is from a two-headed, three-legged horse alien race of highly-advanced cowards. I love him.
Multi-faceted characters
The Ringworld, with its carefully-considered technologies for air, landscape, a day/night cycle, spaceports, defence and more, is just the start. Teleportation has rendered all human cities one homogenous soup. One weapon disables and addicts an enemy via artificial bursts of happiness. The ships have a stasis field that freezes you in time when it detects trouble. Some races can move entire planets. The idea of breeding for luck is a surprise through-line that explores how being the luckiest person alive might make you something that is barely even human.
Oh, and one of the principle characters is from a two-headed, three-legged horse alien race of highly-advanced cowards. I love him.
Multi-faceted characters
- Speaker-to-Animals, an ambassador from the warrior tiger-man race, the kzin, is bloodthirsty, patriotic, and eager to command, but he is also scared at times, admits when he's in pain and is capable of highly intelligent deductions in the heat of battle (and hates being called cute).
- Sweet, pitiful Nessus, who curls into a ball at the first sign of danger, is also an outcast among his kind for being bold enough to meet with aliens, longs for a mate, and is not above calculated cruelty when his mission requires it.
- Teela Brown wears the skin of your typical 70s sci-fi feeble-brained woman but she contributes scientific theories to the group, does better mental math than the protagonist, and as the story evolves, her recklessness is cast in a very different light to plain old stupidity.
- Louis is... ok Louis Wu is an everyman but he skates around some macho stereotypes thanks to his willingness to admit being afraid of pain, his patience with Nessus, and his indifference to power. He only wants to explore and have sex but he's also sharp enough to hold his own. (See content warning for light-spoiler notes on his misogyny.)
I also enjoy how the aliens stayed alien. The formal affectations of their speech makes you as a reader have to learn to read between the lines along with Louis. Rewarding.
Game theory politics
Bucking the trend of early hard sci-fi being all plot and no character, this party is like a group of colleagues desperately trying to remain professional on a business trip whilst the extended proximity reveals more and more to admire and despise about each other. Since the outcome of their mission to the Ringworld will greatly effect their races' futures, each character, despite being atypical for their race, is trying to optimise a particular cultural value - survival for Nessus, honour for Speaker, and whatever Teela's luck decides it wants - with Louis mediating. They hurt each other constantly, often while regretfully explaining their logic for doing so. At times, the coldness of it reminded me of the chess-like moves Cixin Liu's characters make in his Remembrances of Earth's Past trilogy. And yet, Ringworld retains its jovial road trip atmosphere between the gut punches.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Fire/Fire injury
Moderate: Misogyny, Slavery, Colonisation, and Injury/Injury detail
Minor: Confinement and Homophobia
[LIGHT SPOILERS] --- HOMOPHOBIA/TRANSPHOBIA: Louis insists that a race who can fly entire planets around the galaxy can't possibly have a mated pair of beings using 'he' pronouns who produce offspring. --- MISOGYNY: Louis does think of women almost exclusively in terms of sex and is initially very dismissive of Teela as a bit of a bimbo (she's 20, he's 200 btw). However, the narrative laughs at this by constantly having Teela display not only scientific aptitude but useful practicality. Later, we even get an explanation as to how her shallowness and recklessness make total sense due to special traits she has. If there were even one more nuanced female character in the book, I would give Niven the benefit of the doubt in making Teela a pseudo-bimbo. However, the only other named woman also happens to be juvenile (despite a huge age) and is a sex worker who does little besides seducing Louis. She even talks a bit caveman due to their language differences. Worst of all, they decided she was a sex worker initially simply because she was one of only a few women on her old crew. Awesome. Oh, and the kzin and puppeteer races BOTH have non-sentient females. I maintain that this book is less sexist than usual for its time, but it still stings here and there.ailsaod's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
mysterious
reflective
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.0
This book was the written version of the frogs in a pot of heating water 'experiment'. I have wanted to read it for some time since reading the free preview on goodreads and I finally bought a copy to celebrate my first ever paycheck (evidently mistakes were made!).
I thought this book was what I am looking for: a team goes to investigate a massive, mysterious celestial object and while exploring discover stuff (potentially with some added ominous occurrences to add extra spice). There are plenty of books that appear to fit this brief - even plenty that do but why are they always so horribly flawed? I am looking for exploration not a sermon about political systems or awfully uncomfortable flirting!
I had really high hopes for Ringworld and INITIALLY things were looking good. The (alien) characters were interesting as was Niven's vision of a future Earth with teleportation technology and inhabitants with massively extended lifespans. There were things that were a bit off when it came to the human characters but I thought it might be poor aging - like watching the original series of Star trek, which was apparently pretty woke at the time but now is a bit uncomfortable because we've come so far (Star trek is even only 4 years older than Ringworld). Although, despite believing it could have been woke once upon a time I was still struggling with both of the alien species Niven focuses on having nonsentient females that are treated like property. Like if it had just been one species that would have been fine - there are existing examples of life where one sex is just kind of a blob that exists and the other is a functioning animal (certain species of anglerfish for example) but its a bit much when it is 100% of the developed alien species.
It takes the whole first half of the book for the crew to arrive at the Ringworld (which doesn't leave a whole lot of wriggle room for a book under 300 pages!) Much of the book - and in particular the section where they are travelling to the ringworld is filled with a lot of discussion of concepts such as Dyson spheres and Klemperer rosettes which I have mixed feelings about because it is nice to see someone trying to create a world this crazy using pre-existing scientific ideas but it can also get a little dry. There is also a whole heap of evolution stuff mentioned (more on that later!) that was mostly fairly solid but at times Niven says some odd things - though at least some of the off parts likely seemed plausible at the time of writing and have since been disproven - so I imagine the physics stuff could contain similar weirdness for someone with a good understanding of that area.
Once they arrive on the Ringworld the frogs begin to simmer a little. Everything described feels like an old Star trek set: weird polystyrene boulders, improbable environments and everyone wearing some kind of weird jumpsuit with cut-outs or spangled leotard. It doesn't feel particularly real but this in itself was fine. What wasn't fine was the plot getting hijacked by the 'luck of teela brown' narrative that, as far as I'm concerned, can go jump in a lake. Basically (spoilers ahead from here on btw), Niven decided artificial selection of sentient species was an interesting plotline (which I agree with - he covers Speaker's horror at realising he is the product of generations of stealthy genetic manipulation pretty well) but then he decided to use the same situation again on Teela Brown - a human woman who only exists because all her ancestors going back 6 generations won the right to have an extra child in a lottery. This in itself is an interesting concept but Niven takes this as selection for luck in humans which is just bizarre. Does the man not realise that evolution already contains a decent amount of 'luck' - it is not always enough to be the most suited to an environment if say a forest fire or some other event occurs so you could argue that everyone in existence has already been selected for luck - if it wasn't a completely barmy idea! I do not have a great understanding of probability theory but I know enough to say with certainty that events occur differently just because a 'lucky' person is involved. Niven ends the book with the horrifying conclusion that everything that has happened is to ensure Teela ends up on the Ringworld so she can be safe from a big explosion thing that is going to sweep through the galaxy in thousands of years time with the added implication that she is going to be immortal. Which opens the can of worms of just how much of what happened occured was 'manipulated' by Teela's luck so Teela ends up on the Ringworld? Is it merely that she went on the expedition? Or does it include that she exists at all? Did it cause the Puppeteers to start their attempts at selective breeding? Did it cause the Ringworld to be built so there would be somewhere for her to be safe? Did it cause the universe to exist? Where am I supposed to draw the line when Niven writes that Teela surviving situations that should have killed her is expected and goes as far as saying that her very feelings are influenced by her luck - meaning she falls in and out of love with people at the right times to get her where she needs to be. Like I have witnessed far too many debates on free will and I did not want it in a book that I thought was going to be about exploration!
Oh, also a final thing that really ruined this book for me is Niven's opinions on women. Teela and Louis have disgusting amounts of sex in this book - thankfully most of which is not described but there are a couple that are a bit more explicit that made me uncomfy. Teela is a tenth of Louis' age which is so much of an age gap that my brain just kind of skipped over it. The thing that really gets me going is that Louis and Teela fall out of love nearly instantaneously fairly late on in the book (due to the 'intervention' of a certain someone's luck) and Teela promptly meets a Ringworld native and falls head over heals for her but he won't sleep with her until Louis SELLS her to him. This is treated in the narrative as a perfectly logical and reasonable course of action and I would like to ask if all men thought selling women into slavery was a fine thing to do in the 70s or is Niven an outlier?? It was at this point I realised I was a frog in boiling water but it was far too late to get out by then. Louis meets Prill fairly late in the book and she replaces Teela as his designated person to have sex with way too often. Prill was a ship's prostitute (what else would a woman be doing on a space ship Niven asks us confusedly) but is stranded on the Ringworld until Louis and Co show up. Nessus (the Puppeteer character) manipulates her using a device called a tasp which acitaves the brain's pleasure centres until she becomes addicted to it and there are several sex scenes with verrrry dubious consent. I don't know if the copious sex scenes are the author projecting or fanservice but either way someone somewhere seems to find the female characters with no/limited free will way too appealing and I find it rather yikes.
Tl:dr - this book starts with some great ideas but gets sidetracked by a stupid idea and becomes a massive disappointment.
I thought this book was what I am looking for: a team goes to investigate a massive, mysterious celestial object and while exploring discover stuff (potentially with some added ominous occurrences to add extra spice). There are plenty of books that appear to fit this brief - even plenty that do but why are they always so horribly flawed? I am looking for exploration not a sermon about political systems or awfully uncomfortable flirting!
I had really high hopes for Ringworld and INITIALLY things were looking good. The (alien) characters were interesting as was Niven's vision of a future Earth with teleportation technology and inhabitants with massively extended lifespans. There were things that were a bit off when it came to the human characters but I thought it might be poor aging - like watching the original series of Star trek, which was apparently pretty woke at the time but now is a bit uncomfortable because we've come so far (Star trek is even only 4 years older than Ringworld). Although, despite believing it could have been woke once upon a time I was still struggling with both of the alien species Niven focuses on having nonsentient females that are treated like property. Like if it had just been one species that would have been fine - there are existing examples of life where one sex is just kind of a blob that exists and the other is a functioning animal (certain species of anglerfish for example) but its a bit much when it is 100% of the developed alien species.
It takes the whole first half of the book for the crew to arrive at the Ringworld (which doesn't leave a whole lot of wriggle room for a book under 300 pages!) Much of the book - and in particular the section where they are travelling to the ringworld is filled with a lot of discussion of concepts such as Dyson spheres and Klemperer rosettes which I have mixed feelings about because it is nice to see someone trying to create a world this crazy using pre-existing scientific ideas but it can also get a little dry. There is also a whole heap of evolution stuff mentioned (more on that later!) that was mostly fairly solid but at times Niven says some odd things - though at least some of the off parts likely seemed plausible at the time of writing and have since been disproven - so I imagine the physics stuff could contain similar weirdness for someone with a good understanding of that area.
Once they arrive on the Ringworld the frogs begin to simmer a little. Everything described feels like an old Star trek set: weird polystyrene boulders, improbable environments and everyone wearing some kind of weird jumpsuit with cut-outs or spangled leotard. It doesn't feel particularly real but this in itself was fine. What wasn't fine was the plot getting hijacked by the 'luck of teela brown' narrative that, as far as I'm concerned, can go jump in a lake. Basically (spoilers ahead from here on btw), Niven decided artificial selection of sentient species was an interesting plotline (which I agree with - he covers Speaker's horror at realising he is the product of generations of stealthy genetic manipulation pretty well) but then he decided to use the same situation again on Teela Brown - a human woman who only exists because all her ancestors going back 6 generations won the right to have an extra child in a lottery. This in itself is an interesting concept but Niven takes this as selection for luck in humans which is just bizarre. Does the man not realise that evolution already contains a decent amount of 'luck' - it is not always enough to be the most suited to an environment if say a forest fire or some other event occurs so you could argue that everyone in existence has already been selected for luck - if it wasn't a completely barmy idea! I do not have a great understanding of probability theory but I know enough to say with certainty that events occur differently just because a 'lucky' person is involved. Niven ends the book with the horrifying conclusion that everything that has happened is to ensure Teela ends up on the Ringworld so she can be safe from a big explosion thing that is going to sweep through the galaxy in thousands of years time with the added implication that she is going to be immortal. Which opens the can of worms of just how much of what happened occured was 'manipulated' by Teela's luck so Teela ends up on the Ringworld? Is it merely that she went on the expedition? Or does it include that she exists at all? Did it cause the Puppeteers to start their attempts at selective breeding? Did it cause the Ringworld to be built so there would be somewhere for her to be safe? Did it cause the universe to exist? Where am I supposed to draw the line when Niven writes that Teela surviving situations that should have killed her is expected and goes as far as saying that her very feelings are influenced by her luck - meaning she falls in and out of love with people at the right times to get her where she needs to be. Like I have witnessed far too many debates on free will and I did not want it in a book that I thought was going to be about exploration!
Oh, also a final thing that really ruined this book for me is Niven's opinions on women. Teela and Louis have disgusting amounts of sex in this book - thankfully most of which is not described but there are a couple that are a bit more explicit that made me uncomfy. Teela is a tenth of Louis' age which is so much of an age gap that my brain just kind of skipped over it. The thing that really gets me going is that Louis and Teela fall out of love nearly instantaneously fairly late on in the book (due to the 'intervention' of a certain someone's luck) and Teela promptly meets a Ringworld native and falls head over heals for her but he won't sleep with her until Louis SELLS her to him. This is treated in the narrative as a perfectly logical and reasonable course of action and I would like to ask if all men thought selling women into slavery was a fine thing to do in the 70s or is Niven an outlier?? It was at this point I realised I was a frog in boiling water but it was far too late to get out by then. Louis meets Prill fairly late in the book and she replaces Teela as his designated person to have sex with way too often. Prill was a ship's prostitute (what else would a woman be doing on a space ship Niven asks us confusedly) but is stranded on the Ringworld until Louis and Co show up. Nessus (the Puppeteer character) manipulates her using a device called a tasp which acitaves the brain's pleasure centres until she becomes addicted to it and there are several sex scenes with verrrry dubious consent. I don't know if the copious sex scenes are the author projecting or fanservice but either way someone somewhere seems to find the female characters with no/limited free will way too appealing and I find it rather yikes.
Tl:dr - this book starts with some great ideas but gets sidetracked by a stupid idea and becomes a massive disappointment.
Content Warnings
Moderate: Gore, Misogyny, Sexism, Sexual content, Slavery, and Fire/Fire injury
Minor: Addiction and Cultural appropriation
Not sure if it counts for the cultural appropriation but there are some weird remarks about Asian people at the beginning and the main character uses cosmetics so look like he is a 'cartoon' Asian person which was probably fine back in the 70s but now not so much!
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