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rorikae's review against another edition
adventurous
emotional
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? N/A
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.0
A slower installment in the Wheel of Time series with an explosive ending. This book has less battles and character movement than the previous installments though we do get some quality time with a number of the characters. This is the first installment where one of our main characters is completely absent, which felt strange but made sense given the context of the wider story. Despite a relatively slow plot for a majority of the book, the ending includes some big moments, including some heartbreaking ones. I am interested to see how this ripples out into the wider plot. I hope that the next book has a bit more going on though I know there are a few books where not a ton happens. The characters are what continue to keep my interest.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Death, Slavery, Toxic relationship, Violence, Grief, Murder, and Gaslighting
Minor: Sexual content
rikuson1's review against another edition
emotional
tense
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
2.5
It Was Okay đ«€
-â â âźââ - (2.50/5.00)
My Grading Score = 50% (D+)
I am just going to have to accept and come to the conclusion that when it comes to this series, I need to stay as honest about my thoughts as I possibly can. Maybe in hindsight, I'll like The Fires of Heaven more, but as of right now, I can not say that I did that much.
The Fires of Heaven felt like it tried to have a similar pacing as The Great Hunt where it tries to be sporadic but the issue is that when it came to The Great Hunt it had fewer moments that were unengaging to me than The Fires of Heaven.
The story starts off focusing heavily on the POV that takes up more of this book than it probably should have, and it is with Siuan Sanche on the run. The start of this book was very odd and did not fully pull me into it, starting with such a character and crew.
The next POV consisted of Elayane and Nynaeve encountering the circus/menagerie and the character Valan Luca. When it transitioned to this portion, it started to lose me even more, especially since it overstayed its welcome. Speaking of Nynaeve, I feel like her character in this book is the most infuriating and annoying she has ever been. Throughout this book, she was non-stop nagging and whining about everything under the sun to literally everyone. Additionally, when it came to the inner monologue and overall dialogue for basically every female character in this book, at some point, it was riddled to the rim with overwhelming misandry. The books leading up to this one had their fair share of this, but this one did reach a point where it did get a bit too annoying and started to sully my experience, especially like I said, it's coming from basically every single female. I understand that this is the world that they live in, and it's probably normal to take down about men, but that doesn't change the fact that it was just not enjoyable to any degree.
Another portion of the Elayane and Nynaeve portion consisted of them going in and out of the dreamworld to contact Egwene, Siuan Sanche and meeting with Birgitte who is there and assists them in spying on the Forsaken who are discussing about how they should leave Rand alone, which did not make that much sense to me. Especially since continuously throughout this book, it is stated that thirteen ajah can overpower any man, including the dragon reborn (if I'm not mistaken). You would assume the best thing to do is for all of them to ambush him at once, but instead, they conclude that the one who would be in charge of observing Rand and going after him, alone, is Lanfear, the person who was in love with Rand's previous reincarnation, that did not seem like a good idea to have her do that alone, conflict of interests should have raised questions in that decisions and it started to raise my suspicions that the Forsaken overall are not that competent of villains. When they found out this information Nynaeve and Birgitte are ambushed by Moghedien, this is a villain who was easily defeated in the last book by Nynaeve and at the start of this book RJ tries to redeem how much of a threat she is by having her torture Liandrin, which somewhat worked and it almost did here as well during the ambush. But with her failing to capture them and Birgitte shooting her and them getting away, it just felt like it undermined how competent and powerful she's supposed to be. Additionally, on top of the fact that the next time they encounter her, she is once again easily subdued because Nynaeve imagines a linking chain around her neck. It felt anti-climatic once again for a build-up to an enemy the book spent so much time hyping up.
The Rand POV was the best of the three. We simply are picking up where The Shadow Rising left. And probably my favorite part in the book comes in the fashion with the explanation of Bale-Fire. I thought how it was executed and explained was very impressive and creative. Then it transitions to the story focusing on Rand deciding that their next move is to chase down Couladin, who took the Shaido Aiel west to raid towns along the Spine of the World and attempt to take Cairhien. This issue I had with everything leading up to the Couladin conflict is that, firstly, it was very, very slow-paced, building up to Couladin himself. And then, when it's finally time to give us the reader some sort of payoff to the Couladin conflict, he gets off-paged killed by Matt. At first, I thought I genuinely dozed off while reading and completely missed the fight, which would have been bad if I had been so bored that I completely missed such an important encounter. But when I doubled back to realize I did not miss anything, it was skipped over and we were just told that Matt killed him, severely disappointed me as someone who was looking forward to his end, and I felt cheated out of a fight that I felt was built up to for a nice chunk of this book.
The other part of the Rand portion that was heavily focused on was the romance between him and Aviendha. I heard that Robert Jordan was not that good at romance, and up to this point, I didn't fully agree or care to debate against that point. For how sloppy Perrin and Faile's relationship started in The Dragon Reborn I was sold on it by the end of The Shadow Rising and she was quite annoying there too, so I was going into this dynamic with the same expectation. I am still trying to wrap my head around the irrational decision of creating a way gate to a location far off in the freezing cold and running through it naked to get away from Rand. I understand that she wanted to get away from him as far as possible but this was just a bit too unreasonable, even for me, to take seriously even from an irrational standpoint, she basically said with her actions that she was ready to kill herself if it meant she could get away from him in that moment. And if that was her mindset then I do not understand how one could go from such a mindset in one moment to having sex with him, to me it just felt way too forced and I was not convinced. At least I wasn't bored, I just thought such a scene could have been handled better.
Another POV we got around the first half of the book that dealt with Morgase and her relationship with Gabriel. These weren't bad or too boring. They were engaging enough but were mainly and simply here to set up Rahvin as a main conflict for the climax of this book.
At the end of the Rand POV, a spy tells Lanfear that Rand had been with another woman, and she flips out to go to him and causes a rampage. This, to me, showcases that Lanfear knows where Rand is located essentially at most, if not all, times. Once again, if she was going to ambush him, you would assume that she'd tell literally any of the other Forsaken to come with her it on this mission for better success. One could say she was too much in rage to think about such a thing and ran off, but once again this just brings the Forsakens' level of competence in question, especially since up to this point Lanfear I felt was one of the main Forsaken that felt like they always moved in a way that had a lot of thought put into every detail, her fall from grace over such a thing I understand to some degree and plus she is very powerful and probably was under the impression that she's stronger than anyone that could get in her way but still once again you'd assume she would have a back up plan in some fashion given by how much planning and scheming she's done up to this point. I don't know. Once again, it just did not sit well with me on this action from her. Her and Moraine clash and end up killing each other, which was another conflict I'm not sure how to feel about since it happened so quickly. This once again just brings up one of my gripes with RJ, I just feel like he spends too much time detailing out so many other things but when it comes to fight scenes and the written choreography that could be done it leaves so much to be desired and it makes basically fight and climatic conflict just not feel rewarding to me.
In the last portion of the Rand POV, he is made aware that Rahvin has killed Morgase in Caemlyn. He, basically like Lanfear, gets enraged and heads down to Caemlyn to kill Rahvin. He gets there and falls into a lighting trap that kills Matt, Aviendha, and another person I can't remember right now ( it doesn't matter tbh). And Rand rushes into the palace to fight Rahvin. Ravhin creates a way-gate and runs away inside of it, and Rand follows him. This brings up another issue I have with basically most of these Forsaken climax fights. They are suppose to be these all powerful enemies but most of these end book fights consist of them running away while Rand chases them down and defeats them, riddled with abstractive action scenes that are extremely difficult to imagine fully. We come to the conclusion that the way-gate Rahvin made was one to the dreamworld, and it is not explained why Rahvin does this. The plot reason is to connect Rand's POV with Nyneave's who shows up there to distract Rahvin giving Rand enough time to shoot him with balefire, which causes his actions to be erased, thus brining back Matt and Aviendha. At the start of the book, when the balefire was executed and explained, I thought it was (and still is) very creative, bad ass and powerful. The potential for creative ways this could possibly be used in a fight I felt is only limited by how RJ writes it. And here I did not feel like the execution of such a creative element was utilized in an impressive or creative way.
Lastly, the book ends with a mysterious person meeting Asmodean and killing him.
Verdict
If you manage to read everything I wrote above, you can see the many issues I personally had with this book entry. On paper, a lot happened, and debatably, some of the coolest events in the series thus far occurred. I can understand how someone could come out of The Fires of Heaven, absolutely loving it despite its flaws. But for me, the execution of so many of these moments that should have been cool for me fell from the Fires of Heaven down to the Pools in Hell. I do not think overall that this is a bad book or even the weakest entry for me thus far, that still goes to The Dragon Reborn. But it was not that good to me,
It Was Okay
-â â âźââ - (2.50/5.00)
My Grading Score = 50% (D+)
I am just going to have to accept and come to the conclusion that when it comes to this series, I need to stay as honest about my thoughts as I possibly can. Maybe in hindsight, I'll like The Fires of Heaven more, but as of right now, I can not say that I did that much.
The Fires of Heaven felt like it tried to have a similar pacing as The Great Hunt where it tries to be sporadic but the issue is that when it came to The Great Hunt it had fewer moments that were unengaging to me than The Fires of Heaven.
The story starts off focusing heavily on the POV that takes up more of this book than it probably should have, and it is with Siuan Sanche on the run. The start of this book was very odd and did not fully pull me into it, starting with such a character and crew.
The next POV consisted of Elayane and Nynaeve encountering the circus/menagerie and the character Valan Luca. When it transitioned to this portion, it started to lose me even more, especially since it overstayed its welcome. Speaking of Nynaeve, I feel like her character in this book is the most infuriating and annoying she has ever been. Throughout this book, she was non-stop nagging and whining about everything under the sun to literally everyone. Additionally, when it came to the inner monologue and overall dialogue for basically every female character in this book, at some point, it was riddled to the rim with overwhelming misandry. The books leading up to this one had their fair share of this, but this one did reach a point where it did get a bit too annoying and started to sully my experience, especially like I said, it's coming from basically every single female. I understand that this is the world that they live in, and it's probably normal to take down about men, but that doesn't change the fact that it was just not enjoyable to any degree.
Another portion of the Elayane and Nynaeve portion consisted of them going in and out of the dreamworld to contact Egwene, Siuan Sanche and meeting with Birgitte who is there and assists them in spying on the Forsaken who are discussing about how they should leave Rand alone, which did not make that much sense to me. Especially since continuously throughout this book, it is stated that thirteen ajah can overpower any man, including the dragon reborn (if I'm not mistaken). You would assume the best thing to do is for all of them to ambush him at once, but instead, they conclude that the one who would be in charge of observing Rand and going after him, alone, is Lanfear, the person who was in love with Rand's previous reincarnation, that did not seem like a good idea to have her do that alone, conflict of interests should have raised questions in that decisions and it started to raise my suspicions that the Forsaken overall are not that competent of villains. When they found out this information Nynaeve and Birgitte are ambushed by Moghedien, this is a villain who was easily defeated in the last book by Nynaeve and at the start of this book RJ tries to redeem how much of a threat she is by having her torture Liandrin, which somewhat worked and it almost did here as well during the ambush. But with her failing to capture them and Birgitte shooting her and them getting away, it just felt like it undermined how competent and powerful she's supposed to be. Additionally, on top of the fact that the next time they encounter her, she is once again easily subdued because Nynaeve imagines a linking chain around her neck. It felt anti-climatic once again for a build-up to an enemy the book spent so much time hyping up.
The Rand POV was the best of the three. We simply are picking up where The Shadow Rising left. And probably my favorite part in the book comes in the fashion with the explanation of Bale-Fire. I thought how it was executed and explained was very impressive and creative. Then it transitions to the story focusing on Rand deciding that their next move is to chase down Couladin, who took the Shaido Aiel west to raid towns along the Spine of the World and attempt to take Cairhien. This issue I had with everything leading up to the Couladin conflict is that, firstly, it was very, very slow-paced, building up to Couladin himself. And then, when it's finally time to give us the reader some sort of payoff to the Couladin conflict, he gets off-paged killed by Matt. At first, I thought I genuinely dozed off while reading and completely missed the fight, which would have been bad if I had been so bored that I completely missed such an important encounter. But when I doubled back to realize I did not miss anything, it was skipped over and we were just told that Matt killed him, severely disappointed me as someone who was looking forward to his end, and I felt cheated out of a fight that I felt was built up to for a nice chunk of this book.
The other part of the Rand portion that was heavily focused on was the romance between him and Aviendha. I heard that Robert Jordan was not that good at romance, and up to this point, I didn't fully agree or care to debate against that point. For how sloppy Perrin and Faile's relationship started in The Dragon Reborn I was sold on it by the end of The Shadow Rising and she was quite annoying there too, so I was going into this dynamic with the same expectation. I am still trying to wrap my head around the irrational decision of creating a way gate to a location far off in the freezing cold and running through it naked to get away from Rand. I understand that she wanted to get away from him as far as possible but this was just a bit too unreasonable, even for me, to take seriously even from an irrational standpoint, she basically said with her actions that she was ready to kill herself if it meant she could get away from him in that moment. And if that was her mindset then I do not understand how one could go from such a mindset in one moment to having sex with him, to me it just felt way too forced and I was not convinced. At least I wasn't bored, I just thought such a scene could have been handled better.
Another POV we got around the first half of the book that dealt with Morgase and her relationship with Gabriel. These weren't bad or too boring. They were engaging enough but were mainly and simply here to set up Rahvin as a main conflict for the climax of this book.
At the end of the Rand POV, a spy tells Lanfear that Rand had been with another woman, and she flips out to go to him and causes a rampage. This, to me, showcases that Lanfear knows where Rand is located essentially at most, if not all, times. Once again, if she was going to ambush him, you would assume that she'd tell literally any of the other Forsaken to come with her it on this mission for better success. One could say she was too much in rage to think about such a thing and ran off, but once again this just brings the Forsakens' level of competence in question, especially since up to this point Lanfear I felt was one of the main Forsaken that felt like they always moved in a way that had a lot of thought put into every detail, her fall from grace over such a thing I understand to some degree and plus she is very powerful and probably was under the impression that she's stronger than anyone that could get in her way but still once again you'd assume she would have a back up plan in some fashion given by how much planning and scheming she's done up to this point. I don't know. Once again, it just did not sit well with me on this action from her. Her and Moraine clash and end up killing each other, which was another conflict I'm not sure how to feel about since it happened so quickly. This once again just brings up one of my gripes with RJ, I just feel like he spends too much time detailing out so many other things but when it comes to fight scenes and the written choreography that could be done it leaves so much to be desired and it makes basically fight and climatic conflict just not feel rewarding to me.
In the last portion of the Rand POV, he is made aware that Rahvin has killed Morgase in Caemlyn. He, basically like Lanfear, gets enraged and heads down to Caemlyn to kill Rahvin. He gets there and falls into a lighting trap that kills Matt, Aviendha, and another person I can't remember right now ( it doesn't matter tbh). And Rand rushes into the palace to fight Rahvin. Ravhin creates a way-gate and runs away inside of it, and Rand follows him. This brings up another issue I have with basically most of these Forsaken climax fights. They are suppose to be these all powerful enemies but most of these end book fights consist of them running away while Rand chases them down and defeats them, riddled with abstractive action scenes that are extremely difficult to imagine fully. We come to the conclusion that the way-gate Rahvin made was one to the dreamworld, and it is not explained why Rahvin does this. The plot reason is to connect Rand's POV with Nyneave's who shows up there to distract Rahvin giving Rand enough time to shoot him with balefire, which causes his actions to be erased, thus brining back Matt and Aviendha. At the start of the book, when the balefire was executed and explained, I thought it was (and still is) very creative, bad ass and powerful. The potential for creative ways this could possibly be used in a fight I felt is only limited by how RJ writes it. And here I did not feel like the execution of such a creative element was utilized in an impressive or creative way.
Lastly, the book ends with a mysterious person meeting Asmodean and killing him.
Verdict
If you manage to read everything I wrote above, you can see the many issues I personally had with this book entry. On paper, a lot happened, and debatably, some of the coolest events in the series thus far occurred. I can understand how someone could come out of The Fires of Heaven, absolutely loving it despite its flaws. But for me, the execution of so many of these moments that should have been cool for me fell from the Fires of Heaven down to the Pools in Hell. I do not think overall that this is a bad book or even the weakest entry for me thus far, that still goes to The Dragon Reborn. But it was not that good to me,
It Was Okay
Content Warnings
Minor: Bullying, Misogyny, Sexism, Sexual content, Toxic relationship, Violence, Grief, and Toxic friendship
thebruce's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
dark
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.25
Content Warnings
Graphic: Death, Mental illness, Torture, Violence, Blood, Fire/Fire injury, War, and Injury/Injury detail
Moderate: Slavery and Classism
Minor: Alcohol
khaleesiofthegreatwhitenorth's review against another edition
adventurous
dark
mysterious
tense
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.75
TLDR: General fantasy worldbuilding and related plot development stopped me from DNFing the series on this book, because certain [female] character descriptions/plot points are painful reminders of the era it was written in
â
If it werenât for the fascinating elements of the overall plot and an overall interest in seeing Brandon Sandersonâs take on this series later (by finishing it for RJ post mortem) I wouldâve DNFed the series on this book. This book dragged for far too long at the beginning (if this wasnât the start of âthe slogâ Iâm honestly nervous for books 7/8), and even when things started getting interesting they were marred by the way RJ describes most of the women. Maybe the fact I took such a long break between ending book 4 and starting this one is an Influencing factor but this book felt the most atrocious for the endless descriptions of womenâs bodies (which never seem to matter when itâs men, how slender or plump are they RJ?!) and felt like it desperately needed an editor. Especially when it came to Nynaeveâs chapters, my god she I never thought Iâd miss Faile (who was insufferable for about 80-90% of book 4). I know this was written in the early 90s but come on. âShe wasnât fat, she was beautifulâ almost did me in.
But Iâm in too damn deep (donât buy hardcovers of book series you havenât read before until youâre REALLY SURE) and even so I do mean it when I say the overall plot is fascinating. The dream world stuff (I audiobooked this almost exclusively I will never be able to spell it now lol) is great and the balefire element we get introduced to⊠curse you for being so creative with your fantasy worldbuilding RJ *fist shake*đ
â
If it werenât for the fascinating elements of the overall plot and an overall interest in seeing Brandon Sandersonâs take on this series later (by finishing it for RJ post mortem) I wouldâve DNFed the series on this book. This book dragged for far too long at the beginning (if this wasnât the start of âthe slogâ Iâm honestly nervous for books 7/8), and even when things started getting interesting they were marred by the way RJ describes most of the women. Maybe the fact I took such a long break between ending book 4 and starting this one is an Influencing factor but this book felt the most atrocious for the endless descriptions of womenâs bodies (which never seem to matter when itâs men, how slender or plump are they RJ?!) and felt like it desperately needed an editor. Especially when it came to Nynaeveâs chapters, my god she I never thought Iâd miss Faile (who was insufferable for about 80-90% of book 4). I know this was written in the early 90s but come on. âShe wasnât fat, she was beautifulâ almost did me in.
But Iâm in too damn deep (donât buy hardcovers of book series you havenât read before until youâre REALLY SURE) and even so I do mean it when I say the overall plot is fascinating. The dream world stuff (I audiobooked this almost exclusively I will never be able to spell it now lol) is great and the balefire element we get introduced to⊠curse you for being so creative with your fantasy worldbuilding RJ *fist shake*đ
Content Warnings
Moderate: Fatphobia, Violence, and War
rexpostfacto's review against another edition
4.75
Fires of Heaven, alternatively titled: wow men are so dumb for real
Also AVIENDHA đđđđđđđ
Also AVIENDHA đđđđđđđ
Content Warnings
Moderate: Violence, Xenophobia, and War
Minor: Sexual content
pieter_groblerauthor's review against another edition
adventurous
dark
emotional
sad
tense
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.5
Content Warnings
Moderate: Violence and War
Minor: Death
nodogsonthemoon's review against another edition
adventurous
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? It's complicated
3.0
Content Warnings
Moderate: Animal death, Death, Torture, Violence, Blood, Murder, Fire/Fire injury, Alcohol, War, and Injury/Injury detail
josiah17's review against another edition
adventurous
dark
mysterious
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Plot
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.0
First of all, the lack of Perrin for the entirety of the novel brings the rating down. Perrin's my favorite character by far, so I was disappointed he was completely left out, although it does make sense with the context of the story.
Anyways, this is still a very good entry for the Wheel of Time. So far, Jordan's strengths are definitely worldbuilding and plotting. This book is a great example of those strengths. I don't particularly connect to his characters on a super emotional level right now, which is a little frustrating because I consider myself a character-first reader, but the elements in the story and the world Jordan is building is really quite spectacular.
And I can only imagine the characters continue to get better, which is the case with Mat, Aviendha, Rand, and Nynaeve in this book. ESPECIALLY Mat. I couldn't stand him in Eye of The World, and now he's becoming a favorite. Great arc so far.
The Shadow Rising is still my favorite entry so far, but this one is surprisingly a very close second considering my favorite character is completely absent.
Edit 8/7/23: Bumping down to 4.25
Anyways, this is still a very good entry for the Wheel of Time. So far, Jordan's strengths are definitely worldbuilding and plotting. This book is a great example of those strengths. I don't particularly connect to his characters on a super emotional level right now, which is a little frustrating because I consider myself a character-first reader, but the elements in the story and the world Jordan is building is really quite spectacular.
And I can only imagine the characters continue to get better, which is the case with Mat, Aviendha, Rand, and Nynaeve in this book. ESPECIALLY Mat. I couldn't stand him in Eye of The World, and now he's becoming a favorite. Great arc so far.
The Shadow Rising is still my favorite entry so far, but this one is surprisingly a very close second considering my favorite character is completely absent.
Edit 8/7/23: Bumping down to 4.25
Content Warnings
Moderate: Violence
Minor: Sexual content
surdiablo's review against another edition
adventurous
dark
emotional
mysterious
tense
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.0
The first half of this book is slow in the sense that nothing substantial happens and it's mainly character development for Nynaeve and Elayne. While I wasn't bored at all reading it and it was easy enough to go through, it had some <b>huh?</b> moments, like Elayne and Thom flirting, what??? Lack of Perrin wasn't noticeable at all and I love how Rand becomes more and more badass in each book. I am starting to be fond of Nynaeve, annoyed further by Egwene and Mat is hilarious just like in Shadow Rising. I don't think I loved this book, but the last five chapters had me going through the most impactful rollercoaster in the series for me so far, besides the 'What might be' chapter in Great Hunt.
Content Warnings
Moderate: Slavery and Violence
Minor: Sexual content
annick's review against another edition
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Plot
- Strong character development? No
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? No
2.5
Poor writing of female characters, of their conversations, their personalities, their mannerisms (this author thinks angry woman âsniffâ a lot; and cross their arms âunderâ their breasts⊠which isnât physically possible)
Content Warnings
Moderate: Sexism, Violence, and War