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I Don't Want to Talk about It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression by Terrence Real
kessler21's review
4.0
I read this book because I loved [b:Us: Getting Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship|58502657|Us Getting Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship (Goop Press)|Terrence Real|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1636979112l/58502657._SY75_.jpg|91881634] so much.
[b:I Don't Want to Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression|236765|I Don't Want to Talk About It Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression|Terrence Real|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1424410383l/236765._SY75_.jpg|229325] was published in 1997, and Real's take on male depression seemed cutting edge then, and, at least from my experience, is still not widely accepted.
Real says there are two types of depression. Overt depression which includes Major and Minor Depression, the traditional definitions of depression. This manifests as loss of sleep, loss of appetite, eating too much, loss of interest in things and so on and so forth. The second for of depression is Covert Depression. This is where men (I assume can apply to women) are depressed but are using coping mechanism to keep it at bay. This normally includes some type of addiction, drugs, alcohol, sex, or any other form of addiction, and men, generally externalizes this depression in aggressive behavior towards other. (Women would normally internalize this depression)
Though this book is not engaging as [b:Us: Getting Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship|58502657|Us Getting Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship (Goop Press)|Terrence Real|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1636979112l/58502657._SY75_.jpg|91881634], I found it to be really helpful in analyzing your past and connecting it to your current actions. How you have to move from Covert to Overt depression before you can heal.
This is the type of therapy I thought I was going to receive when I started going.
[b:I Don't Want to Talk About It: Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression|236765|I Don't Want to Talk About It Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression|Terrence Real|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1424410383l/236765._SY75_.jpg|229325] was published in 1997, and Real's take on male depression seemed cutting edge then, and, at least from my experience, is still not widely accepted.
Real says there are two types of depression. Overt depression which includes Major and Minor Depression, the traditional definitions of depression. This manifests as loss of sleep, loss of appetite, eating too much, loss of interest in things and so on and so forth. The second for of depression is Covert Depression. This is where men (I assume can apply to women) are depressed but are using coping mechanism to keep it at bay. This normally includes some type of addiction, drugs, alcohol, sex, or any other form of addiction, and men, generally externalizes this depression in aggressive behavior towards other. (Women would normally internalize this depression)
Though this book is not engaging as [b:Us: Getting Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship|58502657|Us Getting Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship (Goop Press)|Terrence Real|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1636979112l/58502657._SY75_.jpg|91881634], I found it to be really helpful in analyzing your past and connecting it to your current actions. How you have to move from Covert to Overt depression before you can heal.
This is the type of therapy I thought I was going to receive when I started going.
pagemaster_az's review
5.0
Incredibly insightful and helpful for understanding what a toxic burden society's definition of masculinity can be and how, as a result, internalised depression eventually leads to more externalised "masculine" strategies of coping such as alcoholism, aggression and solitude.
Superbly written and replete with indescribably helpful information and perspective.
Superbly written and replete with indescribably helpful information and perspective.
res_curans's review
4.0
The main premise of this book is that there are two kinds of depression. First is overt depression, meaning what you typically think of as depression, manifesting in lack of energy, feelings of sadness, suicidal ideation, etc. But second is covert depression, where instead of the typical symptoms, you get addictive behavior of one sort or another, such as addiction to gambling, alcohol, work, rage, control, etc., which the author posits are really means of running away or escaping from the vulnerability that confronting the underlying depression would demand. Covert depression, then, is a typically masculine phenomenon, and there are all sorts of psychological and sociological reasons why it persists and gets passed down. The book draws parallels with many of the insights of feminism over the years: e.g., where society discourages women from competition or assertiveness, it demands that men cut themselves off from traditionally "feminine" qualities like sensitivity and social connection to do so. Femininity is seen as inherent in all girls and women, but masculinity—being a man—is something that has to be earned. Fathers want to make their boys into men by detaching from mom, becoming less emotional, etc. But as the author points out, what boys often need is exactly the opposite: a continuing but maturing relationship with the mother, tenderness and attachment from the father.
And there's lots more here. I don't usually go for psychology books, but this one is a lot more insightful than usual. It cut deep for me, each chapter seeming to pinpoint some very specific pain that I've experienced personally. It moved me (I'm ashamed to admit, proving the author's point) to tears on more than one occasion. It's also really beautifully written, with lots of references to film and literature, which is also uncommon for this type of book. The title unfortunately doesn't reflect the tone or the quality of the writing, or the richness of what you'll find here.
I and pretty much all of the guys I've talked to have some weird stuff with our dads, and I'd wager it's true of men across the board in western society. I'm fairly certain this book would resonate with any man at one level or another, even if he wouldn't call himself "depressed" necessarily, and I'd recommend it with only one caveat: while brutally insightful, this book is much heavier on the "here's what's wrong and why" than the "here's what you can do to help yourself and others." Although the book does offer some insight and examples for men recovering intimacy, it seems that the real answer is therapy in one form or another. So, coupled with therapy, this book could be super helpful. On its own, it might just be... depressing.
Also, it makes for a good joke when you're reading it and your wife asks, "What are you reading?" You can reply, "I don't want to talk about it!" and watch the expression on her face before you say, "Gotcha!"
And there's lots more here. I don't usually go for psychology books, but this one is a lot more insightful than usual. It cut deep for me, each chapter seeming to pinpoint some very specific pain that I've experienced personally. It moved me (I'm ashamed to admit, proving the author's point) to tears on more than one occasion. It's also really beautifully written, with lots of references to film and literature, which is also uncommon for this type of book. The title unfortunately doesn't reflect the tone or the quality of the writing, or the richness of what you'll find here.
I and pretty much all of the guys I've talked to have some weird stuff with our dads, and I'd wager it's true of men across the board in western society. I'm fairly certain this book would resonate with any man at one level or another, even if he wouldn't call himself "depressed" necessarily, and I'd recommend it with only one caveat: while brutally insightful, this book is much heavier on the "here's what's wrong and why" than the "here's what you can do to help yourself and others." Although the book does offer some insight and examples for men recovering intimacy, it seems that the real answer is therapy in one form or another. So, coupled with therapy, this book could be super helpful. On its own, it might just be... depressing.
Also, it makes for a good joke when you're reading it and your wife asks, "What are you reading?" You can reply, "I don't want to talk about it!" and watch the expression on her face before you say, "Gotcha!"
4ndysmith's review
5.0
Wow. Ok, so I picked up this book after having heard it briefly mentioned on a podcast. I thought it sounded pretty interesting but only semi-relatable. “I don't want to talk about it” is certainly something I would have said in the past, but I've had a few years of immense personal growth, gaining plenty of self-knowledge through every resource except physically going to therapy (I thought to myself). I didn’t think I had depression, but at the very least thought the book would be interesting regardless, and maybe it would confirm a few things that I've already learned about myself.
Boy, oh boy, was I in for a revelation.
The way male depression is described in this book is by breaking it down into two types: covert and overt depression. The book explores these two types with various stories of actual patients, including the author himself, and breaks them up with his comments, studies, and whatnot. So while being engaging to read, it was also easy to relate to certain aspects of the stories and nearly have them “therapized” in my own life. Not that this book (or any) takes place of therapy, however. If anything, this book showed me how important therapy is and how deeply hidden some things may be. It's like a relationship—you don't put some work in and then at some point have a perfect relationship. Constant care needs to be done. Things grow and change (now I'm mixing metaphors and talking about plants...)
Anyways, all in all, an eye-opening book. I hope psychotherapy will be in my future. I should be aware of covert depression in my life. Maybe I have a bit of alexithymia? And look out for those things which I may be using to self-regulate my self-esteem. I'm a human, after all.
Here are some quotes/notes I found interesting:
“Overt depression in men tends to be overlooked because of societal gender norms, covert depression is hidden both from those that are around him and the man’s own conscious awareness.”
“Whenever a man turns to an external prop for self-esteem regulation, he is involved in the defensive structures of covert depression...I label dependency on any self-esteem ‘dialysis machine,’ addictive dependency.”
“four cardinal areas of dysregulation: difficulty in maintaining healthy self-esteem; difficulty in regulating ones feelings; difficulty in exercising self-care; and difficulty in sustaining connection to others.”
“Alexithymia” -defined from Wikipedia as: “a personality trait characterized by the subclinical inability to identify and describe emotions experienced by one's self. The core characteristic of alexithymia is marked dysfunction in emotional awareness, social attachment, and interpersonal relation. Furthermore, people with high levels of alexithymia can have difficulty distinguishing and appreciating the emotions of others, which is thought to lead to unempathic and ineffective emotional responses.”
“Traditional masculinization teaches boys to replace inherent self-worth with performance based esteem.”
“And grief, as I would come to understand, is depression‘s cure.”
“Depression is not really a feeling; it is a condition of numbness, of non-feeling.”
Boy, oh boy, was I in for a revelation.
The way male depression is described in this book is by breaking it down into two types: covert and overt depression. The book explores these two types with various stories of actual patients, including the author himself, and breaks them up with his comments, studies, and whatnot. So while being engaging to read, it was also easy to relate to certain aspects of the stories and nearly have them “therapized” in my own life. Not that this book (or any) takes place of therapy, however. If anything, this book showed me how important therapy is and how deeply hidden some things may be. It's like a relationship—you don't put some work in and then at some point have a perfect relationship. Constant care needs to be done. Things grow and change (now I'm mixing metaphors and talking about plants...)
Anyways, all in all, an eye-opening book. I hope psychotherapy will be in my future. I should be aware of covert depression in my life. Maybe I have a bit of alexithymia? And look out for those things which I may be using to self-regulate my self-esteem. I'm a human, after all.
Here are some quotes/notes I found interesting:
“Overt depression in men tends to be overlooked because of societal gender norms, covert depression is hidden both from those that are around him and the man’s own conscious awareness.”
“Whenever a man turns to an external prop for self-esteem regulation, he is involved in the defensive structures of covert depression...I label dependency on any self-esteem ‘dialysis machine,’ addictive dependency.”
“four cardinal areas of dysregulation: difficulty in maintaining healthy self-esteem; difficulty in regulating ones feelings; difficulty in exercising self-care; and difficulty in sustaining connection to others.”
“Alexithymia” -defined from Wikipedia as: “a personality trait characterized by the subclinical inability to identify and describe emotions experienced by one's self. The core characteristic of alexithymia is marked dysfunction in emotional awareness, social attachment, and interpersonal relation. Furthermore, people with high levels of alexithymia can have difficulty distinguishing and appreciating the emotions of others, which is thought to lead to unempathic and ineffective emotional responses.”
“Traditional masculinization teaches boys to replace inherent self-worth with performance based esteem.”
“And grief, as I would come to understand, is depression‘s cure.”
“Depression is not really a feeling; it is a condition of numbness, of non-feeling.”
dayoldtea's review against another edition
5.0
This is an incredibly insightful read about depression in men (overt and covert), the way that male socialization harms men, responses to childhood trauma, the power of relationships, and the process of recovering and healing from trauma.
A few caveats:
- Terrence Real may have an overly rosy view of women's relationality and the process of being socialized into womanhood; he's clearly not aware of a lot of feminist scholarship on the topic. Women's socialization, however, is not the main point of this book.
- There also isn't any discussion in this book about what the obligations are for those related to abusive men; the family members in examples work with these men almost without exception. I don't think Real is anti-estrangement, but estrangement as the healthiest option in many situations with abusive men simply isn't discussed.
- There are composite patients who experience a lot of traumatizing issues (child sexual abuse, sexual assault, child abuse, etc.). None of it is graphic, but it can be brought into discussion abruptly.
- I don't always like the way that Terrence Real writes his female composite characters, or about his mother. Some of them read as a bit misogynistic, and his disgust for his mother and her body is especially striking.
Still, though, this book had insights about depression in general and recovery that are helpful regardless of one's gender.
A few caveats:
- Terrence Real may have an overly rosy view of women's relationality and the process of being socialized into womanhood; he's clearly not aware of a lot of feminist scholarship on the topic. Women's socialization, however, is not the main point of this book.
- There also isn't any discussion in this book about what the obligations are for those related to abusive men; the family members in examples work with these men almost without exception. I don't think Real is anti-estrangement, but estrangement as the healthiest option in many situations with abusive men simply isn't discussed.
- There are composite patients who experience a lot of traumatizing issues (child sexual abuse, sexual assault, child abuse, etc.). None of it is graphic, but it can be brought into discussion abruptly.
- I don't always like the way that Terrence Real writes his female composite characters, or about his mother. Some of them read as a bit misogynistic, and his disgust for his mother and her body is especially striking.
Still, though, this book had insights about depression in general and recovery that are helpful regardless of one's gender.