_sarah_reads_'s review against another edition
3.0
This book reminded me how spazzy and confusing and awful and wonderful going away to college can be. It's a story about how scary it is to be away from friends, combined with the exhilaration of figuring out who you are, testing out different identities.
I like that the ending is ambiguous, and that the protagonists don't have everything figured out--that feels real to me.
I have read only a couple books with characters who identify as transgender, and I appreciated the diversity of LGBTQ (+ a myriad of other identifications) characters presented in the story.
This book reminded me to be loving. The hardest parts for me to read, emotionally-speaking, were those where people had opportunities to respond with love but chose not to. Those scenes made me think that even if you're confused or scared by how someone in your life identifies, you can still be kind and loving while you take some time to educate yourself.
I like that the ending is ambiguous, and that the protagonists don't have everything figured out--that feels real to me.
I have read only a couple books with characters who identify as transgender, and I appreciated the diversity of LGBTQ (+ a myriad of other identifications) characters presented in the story.
This book reminded me to be loving. The hardest parts for me to read, emotionally-speaking, were those where people had opportunities to respond with love but chose not to. Those scenes made me think that even if you're confused or scared by how someone in your life identifies, you can still be kind and loving while you take some time to educate yourself.
crystal_reading's review against another edition
Review copy: ARC via publisher
Will review soon.
Will review soon.
scrollsofdragons's review against another edition
2.0
I liked Gretchen but really didn't Toni. Gets mad at her mom for not being happy about her decision when she just came up with it on a whim? I would only be okay with it if they had given it a serious thought and knew 100% that it is what they want. Its a serious life changing decision and Toni was so mixed up about it which is fine so long as you don't determine anything until you are sure and Toni wasn't.
Feminism also, although I prefer the term equalist, is about women seen as equal as men. What does that have to do with femininity? Because apparently in this book, you either are trans or your cis? That if you are genderqueer means you're confused and undecided? Fuck that. I aint trans or cis and I know exactly what I am. Why do you have to have a sex change and be called him, why can't you just be comfortable being masculine and a female? Why is that never an option? Why is someone like me never taken seriously, never talked about.
This book was very black and white and went so far into diversty that those who weren't diversed were majority of the time the bad people. Seriously? Just think, if it had been the other way round, and this novel was mostly straight people who looked down upon gay people? Wouldn't be acceptable, would it? Well it works the other way round too.
Apart from those issues, like I said I really liked Gretchen and although there were many ends left untied, it was an enjoyable okay read. Just didn't have to be so offensive.
Feminism also, although I prefer the term equalist, is about women seen as equal as men. What does that have to do with femininity? Because apparently in this book, you either are trans or your cis? That if you are genderqueer means you're confused and undecided? Fuck that. I aint trans or cis and I know exactly what I am. Why do you have to have a sex change and be called him, why can't you just be comfortable being masculine and a female? Why is that never an option? Why is someone like me never taken seriously, never talked about.
This book was very black and white and went so far into diversty that those who weren't diversed were majority of the time the bad people. Seriously? Just think, if it had been the other way round, and this novel was mostly straight people who looked down upon gay people? Wouldn't be acceptable, would it? Well it works the other way round too.
Apart from those issues, like I said I really liked Gretchen and although there were many ends left untied, it was an enjoyable okay read. Just didn't have to be so offensive.
jadziadax's review against another edition
Me earlier today: "Okay so far I'm enjoying this but I just skimmed through the reviews and yikes I am super concerned (and disappointed, I was expecting better after Lies We Tell Ourselves, which was so good). Should I even bother reading it if the representation is so flawed?"
Me now: I can't do this, it's a disaster honestly. I can not finish this book. I ended up skimming it to see what happened, but yeah...
First of all I want to say while I am not straight in my sexuality, I am cis and have not experienced what T has. But the reviews all seem to be having the same tone, so I am guessing I'm correct in thinking that this is terrible genderqueer representation. Yes, I am sure there are people that use genderqueer and then decide they are ftm or mtm. But the books acts like that is the case for EVERYONE. It acts like genderqueer is not a real identity.
This book has...I dunno know it some redeeming qualities I guess. Maybe.
Oh and I am pretty sure there is a teacher interested in T but I am not 100% sure. If so; ugh stop this.
Lines I hated:
ex "welcome to the formely genderqueer party!' (paraphrasing slightly) said via T's friends
lots of stuff Carroll said (if my friend said those things about my SO I would ditch that friend so fast but no Gretchen does not)
and that part many have pointed out where 'if you post pics of yourself in a bikini you are not a feminist'. WTF.
I'm incredibly disappointed by this. I loved Lies We Tell Ourselves, but this book...no.
Me now: I can't do this, it's a disaster honestly. I can not finish this book. I ended up skimming it to see what happened, but yeah...
First of all I want to say while I am not straight in my sexuality, I am cis and have not experienced what T has. But the reviews all seem to be having the same tone, so I am guessing I'm correct in thinking that this is terrible genderqueer representation. Yes, I am sure there are people that use genderqueer and then decide they are ftm or mtm. But the books acts like that is the case for EVERYONE. It acts like genderqueer is not a real identity.
This book has...I dunno know it some redeeming qualities I guess. Maybe.
Oh and I am pretty sure there is a teacher interested in T but I am not 100% sure. If so; ugh stop this.
Lines I hated:
ex "welcome to the formely genderqueer party!' (paraphrasing slightly) said via T's friends
lots of stuff Carroll said (if my friend said those things about my SO I would ditch that friend so fast but no Gretchen does not)
and that part many have pointed out where 'if you post pics of yourself in a bikini you are not a feminist'. WTF.
I'm incredibly disappointed by this. I loved Lies We Tell Ourselves, but this book...no.
babyfacedoldsoul's review against another edition
4.0
While it was a bit too fluffy for me at times and some of the secondary characters came off kind of flat it was a quick and light hearted read. Definitely a good pool side book.
mehsi's review against another edition
1.0
Phew. I am finally done with this book. Normally if I dislike a book like I dislike this one, I would have dropped it at page 30 or 50, but I just kept going with this one. Because of Gretchen, because of the topic, because of college stuff (which always interests me). And maybe also a bit because I was hoping that Toni would finally see the effing light and get a brain.
Yeah, yeah, Toni was the biggest problem in this one. Every time we got Gretchen's POV I was delighted, but also sad that the whole book wasn't about her. Because Toni was just so damned annoying, I have NOTHING against transgenders, nothing against people who are queer, genderqueer, or whatever other term flew around in this book. I am totally OK with people figuring out their gender. However, there is one thing, or actually some more stuff I am not agreeing with. Stuff I also see around the net, stuff I first noticed on a website I frequent. The whole PUSHING, SHOVING, DEMANDING of people to use genderless/gendersafe pronouns. The bashing, the hating on everyone who DARES to just use Hey Guys, when popping up in a chat. Or the hate when people dare to call someone by their gender pronouns. Or the talk about language being sexist and trying to push your beliefs on others.
Luckily, in this book Toni also sees in that she might be hurting people by her attitude of eradicating all of the gender stuff in her sentences. Because sorry, that is what you are doing. You are doing fine for yourself, but you should also look around you, see that you might hurt people like this. Sadly, she still keeps doing it for a long time, by the time she actually starting to see that it might all go different it was too late for me.
And sorry, that wasn't all why Toni was the most horrendous, bad, craptastic character in the whole world. She was also so fucking selfish, so self-absorbed, and she couldn't even get over the fucking grudge with Gretchen, who decided to pick for herself for once. The whole Gretchen lied to me thing? That tiny little thing? Sure, it sucked, but do you need to keep on whining about it for months?
Can't you just open your eyes for once and look around you? There is a whole world around you, you are not ALONE on that globe. You are surrounded by millions, billions of people. Nice and all that you think you are so superior, but I think you, Toni, are the worst. Putting people in boxes, thinking they aren't so smart so lets not bother them with important stuff, throughout the book I just wanted to throttle Toni for being so selfish. For only thinking of herself. And sure, what she is going through is big. Is Huge. But you know? That doesn't mean that you can't talk to people about it. That doesn't mean you can just ignore people you love. That doesn't mean you act like you did throughout this book.
I could go on and on about Toni, but I will just drop it at this part. I think I have said most of what I wanted, I think my point is clear. I hated Toni, and I will always do that. She ruined the book for me. She could have been so great, she had so much potential to become a great, intriguing character who I could care about.
Then we have Gretchen, I loved the girl. She was pretty great. Sure, she had some stuff I didn't like. But in general? She was a great and also interesting girl. Her struggles with Toni, how Toni was changing was real, though I also wish she would stop with all the guilt-trips, with all the clinging. Toni isn't so great, and I can imagine that you would want to hold on to the relationship, but can't you see what is happening? Can't you see this isn't your fault?
Gretchen, girl, weren't you the one who wanted to explore the world? Who wanted to look further than just your girlfriend? Why don't you just do that. And luckily, she does that quite often, but I feel like she could have done more.
Her relationship/friendship with Carroll? Hit and miss. At times I really liked Carroll, but after a certain point in the book, I hated him. To act like this, to act like it was all Gretchen? How could you?
Still Gretchen was an interesting character, she felt the most real out of the 2 main characters.
Then we have a whole bunch of side-characters, most of them I loved, for several I felt sorry, that they had to go through that to get where they are now. I hope they can be more happy, that they can live their life as they would want it.
Their stories were really interesting and I loved how real they felt.
What else to discuss? Ah, I did like that we at times travelled back to the past, to see certain events (of course from both POVs), I really liked Toni back then, I really liked Gretchen x Toni then. Not like the now part we are mostly in.
The whole transgender part of the story was really interesting. I am not sure if everything is well represented, as I only know basic stuff about it, but I do have to say it seemed that the author did quite a bit of research about the topic. It was really interested to see the transitioning, the thought process of the characters, and how they saw things. How they dealt with family, friends, colleagues.
I wish there was a bit more focus on the whole college stuff as well. Maybe some classes, now at times the only thing we noticed about them being in college was the fact they had quite a bit of free time, did some homework.
I forgot one character. The mom. Dear Lord, what a horrendous character she was. :| How she treated Toni, how she treated her family, how she saw status and how the outside world looked at her family as more important than a daughter struggling with gender. Bleh. :|
I really was looking forward to this book. The first few pages (with Gretchen x Toni's first meeting) was just magnificent. The blurb sounded great, and I also loved Robin Talley's first book to pieces, but sadly this book just got wrong from the moment the lie came out and college started. It is such a shame. I feel really sad that I couldn't like this book.
Hopefully the next Robin Talley book will be one I will love again.
Review first posted at http://twirlingbookprincess.com/
Yeah, yeah, Toni was the biggest problem in this one. Every time we got Gretchen's POV I was delighted, but also sad that the whole book wasn't about her. Because Toni was just so damned annoying, I have NOTHING against transgenders, nothing against people who are queer, genderqueer, or whatever other term flew around in this book. I am totally OK with people figuring out their gender. However, there is one thing, or actually some more stuff I am not agreeing with. Stuff I also see around the net, stuff I first noticed on a website I frequent. The whole PUSHING, SHOVING, DEMANDING of people to use genderless/gendersafe pronouns. The bashing, the hating on everyone who DARES to just use Hey Guys, when popping up in a chat. Or the hate when people dare to call someone by their gender pronouns. Or the talk about language being sexist and trying to push your beliefs on others.
Luckily, in this book Toni also sees in that she might be hurting people by her attitude of eradicating all of the gender stuff in her sentences. Because sorry, that is what you are doing. You are doing fine for yourself, but you should also look around you, see that you might hurt people like this. Sadly, she still keeps doing it for a long time, by the time she actually starting to see that it might all go different it was too late for me.
And sorry, that wasn't all why Toni was the most horrendous, bad, craptastic character in the whole world. She was also so fucking selfish, so self-absorbed, and she couldn't even get over the fucking grudge with Gretchen, who decided to pick for herself for once. The whole Gretchen lied to me thing? That tiny little thing? Sure, it sucked, but do you need to keep on whining about it for months?
Can't you just open your eyes for once and look around you? There is a whole world around you, you are not ALONE on that globe. You are surrounded by millions, billions of people. Nice and all that you think you are so superior, but I think you, Toni, are the worst. Putting people in boxes, thinking they aren't so smart so lets not bother them with important stuff, throughout the book I just wanted to throttle Toni for being so selfish. For only thinking of herself. And sure, what she is going through is big. Is Huge. But you know? That doesn't mean that you can't talk to people about it. That doesn't mean you can just ignore people you love. That doesn't mean you act like you did throughout this book.
I could go on and on about Toni, but I will just drop it at this part. I think I have said most of what I wanted, I think my point is clear. I hated Toni, and I will always do that. She ruined the book for me. She could have been so great, she had so much potential to become a great, intriguing character who I could care about.
Then we have Gretchen, I loved the girl. She was pretty great. Sure, she had some stuff I didn't like. But in general? She was a great and also interesting girl. Her struggles with Toni, how Toni was changing was real, though I also wish she would stop with all the guilt-trips, with all the clinging. Toni isn't so great, and I can imagine that you would want to hold on to the relationship, but can't you see what is happening? Can't you see this isn't your fault?
Gretchen, girl, weren't you the one who wanted to explore the world? Who wanted to look further than just your girlfriend? Why don't you just do that. And luckily, she does that quite often, but I feel like she could have done more.
Her relationship/friendship with Carroll? Hit and miss. At times I really liked Carroll, but after a certain point in the book, I hated him. To act like this, to act like it was all Gretchen? How could you?
Still Gretchen was an interesting character, she felt the most real out of the 2 main characters.
Then we have a whole bunch of side-characters, most of them I loved, for several I felt sorry, that they had to go through that to get where they are now. I hope they can be more happy, that they can live their life as they would want it.
Their stories were really interesting and I loved how real they felt.
What else to discuss? Ah, I did like that we at times travelled back to the past, to see certain events (of course from both POVs), I really liked Toni back then, I really liked Gretchen x Toni then. Not like the now part we are mostly in.
The whole transgender part of the story was really interesting. I am not sure if everything is well represented, as I only know basic stuff about it, but I do have to say it seemed that the author did quite a bit of research about the topic. It was really interested to see the transitioning, the thought process of the characters, and how they saw things. How they dealt with family, friends, colleagues.
I wish there was a bit more focus on the whole college stuff as well. Maybe some classes, now at times the only thing we noticed about them being in college was the fact they had quite a bit of free time, did some homework.
I forgot one character. The mom. Dear Lord, what a horrendous character she was. :| How she treated Toni, how she treated her family, how she saw status and how the outside world looked at her family as more important than a daughter struggling with gender. Bleh. :|
I really was looking forward to this book. The first few pages (with Gretchen x Toni's first meeting) was just magnificent. The blurb sounded great, and I also loved Robin Talley's first book to pieces, but sadly this book just got wrong from the moment the lie came out and college started. It is such a shame. I feel really sad that I couldn't like this book.
Hopefully the next Robin Talley book will be one I will love again.
Review first posted at http://twirlingbookprincess.com/
allzen_nochill's review against another edition
emotional
reflective
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
2.0
Gahhhhh. I really didn't like spending time with either of our main characters - I love characters that are hard to like, but these two just kind of... slogged. Maybe it's because this hit too close to home of my messy relationship that I held on to for too long, but I just wanted to shake them & yell at them to just break the fuck up already. I can't speak to whether this is good gnc/trans rep, but it does use heavy-handed language to try to "educate" the reader, and this book DEFINITELY treats bisexuality as analogous to frivolity. This is a shame, this could have been really good.
julienbakerstan69's review against another edition
this book is so aggressively homophobic and transphobic, which is really really really disappointing from a book that's filled to the brim with lgbt+ characters. like, carroll's constant use of casual slurs towards lesbians and trans people, even though he's not a member of either group?? his constant referral to toni as being female, even though he knows they aren't???? his offensive language surrounding toni transitioning???? gretchen's lack of speaking up for toni when others misgender them or use offensive language???? toni's trans and gnc friends' constantly pressuring them to transition, even though they clearly aren't certain of what they want yet??? the general invalidation !!from literal trans and gnc characters!! of the label genderqueer and the concept of it being complete in and of itself. genderqueer is not a "transitionary" label! it's a valid identity by itself!
im really really disappointed by this, and im not going to finish it. i had such high expectations and was massively let down.
im really really disappointed by this, and im not going to finish it. i had such high expectations and was massively let down.
kaylakaotik's review against another edition
2.0
I've wanted to read this book for a while now. It was one of my Waiting on Wednesday picks in May of last year. It was in my top ten books I wanted to get to (but didn't a chance to read) a couple of weeks ago.
First, I want to say that I really loved Lies We Tell Ourselves. There was an interesting story with diverse characters and the writing was fantastic. It set the bar for Robin Talley's next book very high for me. Then, I saw the blurb for What We Left Behind and I was so excited! It called to me. I wanted this wonderful sounding book with a genderqueer character.
Secondly, is this book a solid representation of what it means to be genderqueer? As a side note, I am cisgender. I have no personal knowledge of what it means to be transgender (or even genderqueer). I am very open to learn about being transgender/genderqueer. I've watched videos on YouTube. I've read things. However, I am not claiming to understand these struggles. I don't. That being said, I've read numerous reviews on Goodreads that state What We Left Behind isn't a good representation of what it means to be genderqueer. Again, I can't speak personally, but I believe I can form an educated opinion. And it feels to me like this isn't a solid representation of being genderqueer. It feels like being genderqueer is treated as a transitional period from cisgender to transgender in this book rather than a legitimate identity.
I feel like the story was weaker in What We Left Behind than it was in Lies We Tell Ourselves. I was perfectly fine with the story focusing on Toni and figuring out their identity while the relationship took more of a backseat, but it just... ugh! I wasn't sure if I was reading a novel or a text book half of the time.
To top it all off, I didn't really like any of the characters. They all kind of sucked. And can someone tell me why, after some of the outrageous things he said, Gretchen was friends with Carroll?
First, I want to say that I really loved Lies We Tell Ourselves. There was an interesting story with diverse characters and the writing was fantastic. It set the bar for Robin Talley's next book very high for me. Then, I saw the blurb for What We Left Behind and I was so excited! It called to me. I wanted this wonderful sounding book with a genderqueer character.
Secondly, is this book a solid representation of what it means to be genderqueer? As a side note, I am cisgender. I have no personal knowledge of what it means to be transgender (or even genderqueer). I am very open to learn about being transgender/genderqueer. I've watched videos on YouTube. I've read things. However, I am not claiming to understand these struggles. I don't. That being said, I've read numerous reviews on Goodreads that state What We Left Behind isn't a good representation of what it means to be genderqueer. Again, I can't speak personally, but I believe I can form an educated opinion. And it feels to me like this isn't a solid representation of being genderqueer. It feels like being genderqueer is treated as a transitional period from cisgender to transgender in this book rather than a legitimate identity.
I feel like the story was weaker in What We Left Behind than it was in Lies We Tell Ourselves. I was perfectly fine with the story focusing on Toni and figuring out their identity while the relationship took more of a backseat, but it just... ugh! I wasn't sure if I was reading a novel or a text book half of the time.
To top it all off, I didn't really like any of the characters. They all kind of sucked. And can someone tell me why, after some of the outrageous things he said, Gretchen was friends with Carroll?